AhmedBahgat
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| Post subject: Exposing Dr Laleh Bakhtiar?????????????????????¢??s ignorance regarding the Quran |
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Salam All
Dr Laleh Bakhtiar who is an American woman but I believe she is originally from Iran has produced an English translation to the Quran not very long ago, I firstly applauded her efforts, but after I started reading some of her notes as well some of the translation itself, I reached the conclusion that this is yet another case of inventing a feel good religion that was never sent by Allah, it?????????????????????¢??s really shame that many Muslims have guts to manipulate Allah words in such ignorant manner
I will reply to her main issue regarding the whole thing, it is verse 4:34 that is her joker, let?????????????????????¢??s see what she has to say and I will reply to her false allegations as I read:
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This translation reverts 4:34 and ?????????????????????¢??to beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? back to its original interpretation meaning ?????????????????????¢??to go away?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
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A clear cut lie or the least a clear cut case of Arabic language ignorance, the original meaning of the word Daraba is to beat, when we add some other words after it then the common meaning will change to a non common meaning,
For example:
1) If the word فِي , Fi, literally means In comes after the word ضَرَبْ , Daraba, which literally means Beat, the whole meaning of beat will change, to Travel In, or even Walk in sort of a metaphor because it is based on the fact that when you walk on the ground you will BEAT with you feet. Let me show you some Quran examples:
O you who have believed! If you travel in the way of Allah, then you should investigate, and do not say to any one who offers you the peace: You are not a believer. You desire the width of the life of this world, but with Allah there are abundant profits; as such you were before, then Allah bestowed (favours) on you; therefore investigate; indeed Allah of what you do is Acquainted.
[The Quran ; 4:94]
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَتَبَيَّنُواْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَنْ أَلْقَى إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلاَمَ لَسْتَ مُؤْمِنًا تَبْتَغُونَ عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا فَعِندَ اللّهِ مَغَانِمُ كَثِيرَةٌ كَذَلِكَ كُنتُم مِّن قَبْلُ فَمَنَّ اللّهُ عَلَيْكُمْ فَتَبَيَّنُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا (94)
-> See, ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ, Darabtum FI Sabil, you travel IN the way, the word FI that came after the word Darabtum must make the verb Darab to mean to travel or to walk
Here is another example:
And if you travelled in the land, then there should be no blame on you if you shorten the prayer if you feared that those who disbelieved will cause you discord, indeed the unbelievers are your obvious enemy.
[Al Quran ; 4:101]
وَإِذَا ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي الأَرْضِ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَن تَقْصُرُواْ مِنَ الصَّلاَةِ إِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَن يَفْتِنَكُمُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِنَّ الْكَافِرِينَ كَانُواْ لَكُمْ عَدُوًّا مُّبِينًا (101)
-> See, ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي الأَرْضِ, Darabtum FI Al Ard, you travel IN the land, again the word FI that came after the word Darbtummust make the verb Darab to mean to travel or to walk
2) If the word عَن, An, literally means From comes after the word ضَرَبْ , Daraba, which literally means Beat, the whole meaning of beat will change, to Turn away from, or even Walk away from sort of a metaphor because it is based on the fact that when you walk away from any thing then you are walking on the ground from it and you will BEAT with you feet as you alk away. Let me show you a Quran example:
Shall We then turn away the Message from you and repel (you), for that ye are a people transgressing beyond bounds?
[The Quran ; 43:5]
أَفَنَضْرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكْرَ صَفْحًا أَن كُنتُمْ قَوْمًا مُّسْرِفِينَ (5)
-> See, أَفَنَضْرِبُ عَنكُمُ, Afanadrab Ankum, i.e. Turn Away from,
If verse 4:34 means Turn away from them, then it should not be looking like this:
وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, Wa Idrabuhunna, i.e. And beat them
Rather be looking like this:
وَاضْرِبُوا عنهن, Wa Idrabu Anhunna, i.e. And turn away from them
See how she clearly lacks the knowledge of the Arabic language, possibly she is treating it as Farsi or something
Now, after I clearly explained the issue of Daraba to everyone with clear examples from the Quran, let me see how she is justifying her obvious ignorance and manipulation to the word Daraba:
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With the blessings of God, this is the first complete English translation of the Quran that uses the original meaning of ?????????????????????¢??to beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? in 4:34 which was ?????????????????????¢??to go away.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
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Again, the original meaning of the word Daraba is to beat you clear cut ignorant
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Three arguments are given for why this is so:
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Great, let me see if they are really strong arguments or nothing but arguments from her Barbie world
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1. The words ?????????????????????¢??beat them?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? in 4:34 are a command, an imperative form of the verb.
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It does not matter if it is a command or not, if the word comes alone then it means the original meaning to beat, if the word An comes after it then it means to walk away from, now, the word An does not appear in 4:34, so why she is insisting on her manipulation?
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Yet the Prophet, peace and the mercy of God be upon him, never carried out this command.
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How she can be that sure?, in fact the man made hadith allege that he beat one of his wives, this is just total Barbie argument man
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Even if one were to say that just because a word in the Quran is grammatically a command does not mean that the Prophet had to carry it out; it means it is permissible for him to do or not to do.
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What that has to do with the meaning of the word Daraba?, she is totally confusing the subject, this is not a bloody speech in a women gathering, this is to say the truth about the meaning of the Arabic words
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The retort: He chose not to do it.
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Again, how she can talk on his behalf?, this is total non sense man
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Therefore, whoever follows the Sunnah of the Prophet should also choose not to do it.
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What a stupid statement that is mates, the sunnah of the prophet was never mentioned in the Quran, she is also presenting it as if following the sunnah is optional, see what she said: whoever follows the Sunnah of the Prophet, now I?????????????????????¢??m asking her, is following the sunnah is a must or optional?, and what is exactly the sunnah?
Is it eating like him? Or pissing like him? Or praying like him?
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2. The word interpreted as ?????????????????????¢??to beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? for over 1400 years in the Islamic world has over 25 meanings.
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What total crap that is man, the word can never has that much meanings, obviously she is confusing the reader or the listener with lies to suit her low desires of manipulating the words of Allah out of its intended meanings.
Now I?????????????????????¢??m asking that ignorant woman, can she list all those 25 meanings and provide example of their use in complete sentences
Let me now tell her again, the word Daraba in 4:34 stayed 1400 years to mean to beat because unfortunately for her low desires, this is what it has to mean because we don?????????????????????¢??t see the word An coming after it for the meaning to be walk away from.
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Why chose a meaning that goes against both the legal and moral principles of the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet?
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Funny indeed, it is not like pick and chose you silly woman, it is the truth that the word Daraba in 4:34 has to mean to beat because the word An did not appear in the whole sentence.
Now, what morals she is talking about if the act of beating will only be inflicted on those perverse wives who insist on their ill conduct and don't want to listen to their pious husbands?
Oh yeh, it is moral for her that the pious husband is forced to live with his repetitive offender and perverse wife because he loves her and does not want to destroy a family and it?????????????????????¢??s cool and dandy with her that the wife continues on her ill conduct without nothing to stop her.
Or is it more moral for such silly woman if the husband didn?????????????????????¢??t beat his perverse wife and just throw her in the streets pending one hell of a distressful day that is called the Judgement day?
That woman is so dumb that she is talking as if 4:34 is telling any husband to beat any wife.
4:34 is only directed at those pious husbands who adhere themselves to the Quran words and are dealing with wives who insist on ill conduct, let?????????????????????¢??s say like shop lifting for example.
Oh yeh, it will be more moral for such ignorant woman that I call the police and let them arrest my perverse wife who insists on shop lifting
So far she presented nothing of an argument, let me see her final chance to provide a valid argument:
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3. The strongest argument for why the Arabic word does not mean ?????????????????????¢??to beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? but rather means ?????????????????????¢??to go away?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? is because interpreting the Arabic word as ?????????????????????¢??to beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? contradicts another verse in the Quran.
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She is getting closer to slam dunk herself
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We start with a premise: Islam encourages marriage and while divorce is allowed,
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Of course, it encourages marrying the pious and believing women, even the pious and believing slaves, it does not encourage marrying a woman who claims to be a believer in Allah while all her actions are nothing but perverse and ill conduct, like beating the children every day for example.
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= it is discouraged. The Prophet said: Marriage is half of faith. He also said: Divorce is deplorable.
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Oh come on, we don?????????????????????¢??t need the prophet to tell us that to understand the importance of marriage and the horrible consequences of divorce, however for that woman, it is ok with her to quickly divorce a perverse wife who insists on her ill conduct and not beat her to try a final method of saving such woman who is indulging in ill conduct while calling herself a believer
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In 2:231 the Quran says as translated in the Sublime Quran: ?????????????????????¢??When you divorce wives, and they (f) are about to reach their (f) term, then hold them (f) back honorably or set them (f) free honorably; and hold them (f) not back by injuring them so that you commit aggression, and whoever commits that, then indeed he does wrong to himself; and take not the Signs of God to yourselves in mockery; remember the divine blessing of God on you and what He sent forth to you of the Book and wisdom; He admonishes you with it; and be Godfearing of God and know that God is knowing of everything.?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? All English translations translate this verse in a similar way.
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Let me bring Free Islam translation too:
And if you have divorced the women and they reached their appointed time (three periods), then either keep them lawfully or let them go with kindness, and do not keep them seeking harm, so that you exceed the limits, and whoever does this, he has done unjust to his own soul; and do not take signs of Allah for a mockery, and remember the favour of Allah upon you, and that which He has sent down to you of the Book and the wisdom, (He) admonishes you with it; and fear Allah and know that Allah with everything is all-Knowing.
[Al Quran ; 2:231]
وَإِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النَّسَاء فَبَلَغْنَ أَجَلَهُنَّ فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ بِمَعْرُوفٍ أَوْ سَرِّحُوهُنَّ بِمَعْرُوفٍ وَلاَ تُمْسِكُوهُنَّ ضِرَارًا لَّتَعْتَدُواْ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَقَدْ ظَلَمَ نَفْسَهُ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُوَاْ آيَاتِ اللّهِ هُزُوًا وَاذْكُرُواْ نِعْمَتَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَمَا أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ مِّنَ الْكِتَابِ وَالْحِكْمَةِ يَعِظُكُم بِهِ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (231)
-> The verse above is talking about the good women, not the bloody perverse ones, see how she is so desperate to find any Quran justification to her manipulations, unfortunately for her it is not going to work, the two verses 4:34 and 2:231 are talking about totally different wives, in fact the verse above is directed at those husbands who may act perversely themselves by keeping their wives against their wish.
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That is, a husband may not hold back his wife from divorce by hurting, harming, injuring her or using force against her.
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You bloody ignorant, 4:34 is not talking about holding the wives, it is talking about those ill conduct wives who insist on their perverse actions in defiance of the husband admonishing
Fine you ignorant, let?????????????????????¢??s throw the ill conduct wives in the street and prevent them from seeing their children (because they are perverts, right) and on the JD most likely they will be secured in hell and that is according to your sunnah that most humans in hell are from among the women, right miss?
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Reading this verse as if for the first time, it suddenly occurred to the translator that what the Quran says in 2:231 contradicts the way 4:34 has been interpreted over the centuries by everyone except the blessed Prophet.
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This is the style of those who promote lies about the Quran, they build a Tom and Jerry or a Barbie argument then keep repeating it on and on and on, I have seen such confused ignorant over free-minds.org, she sounds exactly like them, those who invent a feel good religion that was never sent by the God.
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The translation in the Sublime Quran of 4:34 reflects the interpretation as the blessed Prophet understood it:
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Your translation to 4:34 in your sublime Quran is flawed and only proves your clear cut ignorance and your lack of the Arabic language which I bet was never your mother language
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?????????????????????¢??Men are supporters of wives because God has given some of them an advantage over others and because they spend of their wealth. So the ones (f) who are in accord with morality are the ones (f) who are morally obligated, the ones (f) who guard the unseen of what God has kept safe. But those (f) whose resistance you fear, then admonish them (f) and abandon them (f) in their sleeping place, then go away from them (f); and if they (f) obey you, surely look not for any way against them (f); truly God is Lofty, Great.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
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Here is what the translation of 4:34 should be to the best of my Arabic knowledge:
The men are maintainers of the women because Allah has bestowed some of them over others, and because they spend out of their money; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding in (the husband?????????????????????¢??s) absence as Allah would have them guard; and (as to) those on whose part you fear ill conduct, admonish them, and abandon them in the beds and beat them; but if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; indeed Allah is High, Great.
[Al Quran ; 4:34]
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا (34)
-> See, the verse above is mainly talking about the good wives: the good women are therefore obedient, guarding in (the husband?????????????????????¢??s) absence as Allah would have them guard, now for the freaks from among the wives who insist on their ill conduct this is what Allah told the pious husband to do: and (as to) those on whose part you fear ill conduct, admonish them, and abandon them in the beds and beat them, now if they stop their ill conduct and become good wives again then: but if they obey you, do not seek a way against them, how clear it that?
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In 4:34, as translated in a similar manner by all present English translations except the Sublime Quran translation, Muhammad Asad, for example translates 4:34 in the following way: ?????????????????????¢??Men shall take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guarded. And as for those women whose ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
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Of course, Muhammad Asad translation is more truthful than hers, hers is nothing but a pile of lies and manipulations
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What this tells us (and all present English translations) is that if a woman wants a divorce, a husband is forbidden from harming, hurting, injuring or using force against her while for a woman who wants to stay married, it is permissible for her husband to beat her!!!
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What a clear cut manipulator that woman is man, 4:34 is not talking about a wife that is seeking divorce, seeking divorce is legal in Islam and can never be an act of ill conduct by the wife. Is she such a fool?
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Recall our premise: Islam encourages marriage.
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Yeh right, the premise of marrying good wives, here it is from 4:34 you dumb: the good women are therefore obedient, guarding in (the husband?????????????????????¢??s) absence as Allah would have them guard
Or are you promoting that the men should marry the perverse women who don?????????????????????¢??t guard themselves in the husband absence as Allah wanted them to guard?
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If women were aware of this contradiction,
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The contradiction you created in your Barbie world you fool.
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what woman would chose to stay married and be beaten rather than be divorced and unharmed?
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No you dumb, a woman who is a pervert and insists on her conduct and want to stay married then she will be beaten, the solution is simple you dumb, she must stop her bloody ill conduct
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The Arabic Word of God was, is and remains the Word of God.
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Really?,
What an idiot
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There is no change in the Arabic.
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LOL
So?
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The change is in our perception, our interpretation.
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Exactly, and you are a perfect example of such confused ones, the word Daraba in 4:34 can not mean alk away from, because the word An does not appear in the whole sentence
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The understanding of saying ?????????????????????¢??go away?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? is a revert interpretation to how the blessed Prophet understood it.
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More load of non sense, how she knows the way the prophet understood it?
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Whoever believes in and follows the Sunnah should logically agree with reverting the interpretation to the way that the blessed Prophet understood it.
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See how she is repeating her crap, remember what I told ya, those confused ones invent a delusional concept then keep repeating their wishful thinking over and over hoping to program those who lack knowledge.
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We refer back to the first two arguments
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Why if the third argument is her strongest argument?, sounds like what she is spewing is nothing but dust in thin air, but let?????????????????????¢??s see what she has to parrot again and again regarding her first two Tom and Jerry arguments
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: 1. The word ?????????????????????¢??beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? is a command which the Prophet chose not to carry out; and 2. The Arabic word ?????????????????????¢??beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? has 25 meanings so why chose a meaning that does not follow the legal and moral principles of the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet? 3. Interpreting the word as ?????????????????????¢??beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? contradicts 2:231 and fosters divorce rather than marriage, commands to immorality and prohibits morality which is one of the definitions of a hypocrite in the Quran (see 9:67).
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Holy crap man, she repeated all her three Barbie arguments while she just told us: We refer back to the first two arguments
She is also trying to confuse the subject with yet another unrelated verse 9:67, let me bring it in here:
The hypocritical men and the hypocritical women are all alike; they enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands; they have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them; surely the hypocrites are the transgressors.
[Al Quran ; 9:67]
الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالْمُنَافِقَاتُ بَعْضُهُم مِّن بَعْضٍ يَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمُنكَرِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَقْبِضُونَ أَيْدِيَهُمْ نَسُواْ اللّهَ فَنَسِيَهُمْ إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ (67)
-> The freak is suggesting that the command of Allah to beat the ill conduct wives who do not guard themselves as Allah wants them to guard is a command of immorality, while the fact of the matter that a wife who claims to be a believer in Allah while insisting on her ill conduct and does not guard herself as Allah wants her to guard is a clear cut HYPOCRITE and by beating such freak, she might have a chance to be saved from the lowest level in hell, let me show that ignorant woman the following verses from the same sura no 4:
145: Indeed the hypocrites are in the lowest level of the fire and you shall not find for them a helper.
146: Except those who repented and did good and were united with Allah and were sincere in their religion to Allah, these are with the believers, and Allah will grant the believers a great reward.
[Al Quran ; 4:145-146]
إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ فِي الدَّرْكِ الأَسْفَلِ مِنَ النَّارِ وَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُمْ نَصِيرًا (145)
إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ تَابُواْ وَأَصْلَحُواْ وَاعْتَصَمُواْ بِاللّهِ وَأَخْلَصُواْ دِينَهُمْ لِلّهِ فَأُوْلَئِكَ مَعَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَسَوْفَ يُؤْتِ اللّهُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا (146)
-> See where the hypocrites will reside after the Judgment: Indeed the hypocrites are in the lowest level of the fire. now a wife who claims to be a believer in Allah while insisting on her ill conduct must be one of those hypocrites, and this means that she will be in the lowest level of the fire, possibly when her pious husband beat her due to his love to her and his desire to save her from a horrible doom, that 4:146 will be triggered: Except those who repented and did good and were united with Allah and were sincere in their religion to Allah, now let me ask anyone, Muslim, Kafir or a Mushrik. Is a wife who insists on her ill conduct sincere in her religion to Allah?
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While I have personally been blessed by my contacts with the most understanding and compassionate of men in my lifetime, and I have never found myself in a situation of being physically threatened or beaten,
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Funny indeed, she is like saying that she is a pervert who insists on her ill conduct while her husband is ok with it, I say both must be doomed in hell
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reading about and hearing first hand stories of women who have, I felt the deep sense that I am essentially and spiritually one with them by my very existence. The question I kept asking myself during the years of working on the translation: How could God, the Merciful, the Compassionate, sanction husbands beating their wives?
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See how she is parroting the same lie by the kafirs, this is what she said: How could God, the Merciful, the Compassionate, sanction husbands beating their wives?, I swear by the mighty Allah, that this is exactly what the kafirs say word for word
The freak is putting her question in a way to fool the dumb. Allah does not sanction beating the good wives, in fact this was said in the same verse 4:34, but if they obey you, do not seek a way against them
Allah only sanctioned beating the hypocrite wife who claims to be a believer while insisting on her ill conduct
Why that freak did not include the word perverse before the word wives?
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The feeling, however, did not rise to the surface until the day I first publicly presented the results of this translation of the Sublime Quran at the WISE (Women????????????????????????????¹s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equity) Conference (November, 2006), in particular in reference to 4:34. There were 150 Muslim women from all over the world who had gathered to discuss the possibility of forming a Women????????????????????????????¹s Islamic Council. I gave the logic as to why the word ?????????????????????¢??to beat?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? in 4:34 has to revert to its original interpretation as understood by the Prophet Muhammad, peace and the mercy of God be upon him.
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Dismissed
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At the end of the session, two Muslim women approached me. They said that they work in shelters for battered women and that they and the women in the shelters have been waiting for 1400 years for someone to pay attention to this issue through a translation of the Quran.
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LOL, how funny was that, how the hell those women waited for 1400 years?
Guys, this woman Laleh Bakhtiar is a clear cut jerk, I have to dismiss the rest of her crap:
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The heavy weight of responsibility suddenly fell upon my shoulders. I had to publish my findings as soon as possible so that, with the Will of God, one less woman: wife, mother, sister, daughter, cousin, friend, in general, or Muslim wife, in particular, would be beaten at all and especially not in the Name of God; so that by initiating a dialogue, the minds of the exclusivists will awaken to consciousness and conscience; they will counsel those husbands who place their hand on the Word of God and give themselves permission to beat their wives, that they have neither the legal nor the moral right to do that. It is the prayer of all women throughout the world that all future translations of the Quran, in whatever language, will revert the interpretation back to the legal and moral principles of the Quran and Sunnah of the blessed Prophet.
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Dismissed
Salam all |
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